Metagame Arceus in Ubers UU

Arceus in Ubers UU

I have felt for a while that :arceus: is too strong for this tier. There are many reasons why it should leave the tier, but there are also many reasons it should stay in this tier. (Remember that this is just my opinion as an individual and not a reflection of the council's opinions as a whole, and you’re free to disagree and discuss in the thread below.)

Its versatility

Arceus is incredibly versatile in almost every sense. Need a specially defensive Fire-type with recovery? Say no more :arceus-fire:. Need an offensive Dark-type sweeper? Go for it, :arceus-dark:. Luckily, Team Preview tells you what Arceus form your opponent has, but that doesn’t remove the entire guessing game. Multiple Arceus formes have multiple sets, and these can range on any side of the attacking spectrum, with most status moves, such as Will-O-Wisp or Thunder Wave, almost any coverage move it desires, such as Earth Power and Extreme Speed, and can setup in many ways. All of this is bolstered by...

Its stat distribution

Arceus has a pretty simple stat spread. 120 in every stat. It cannot be understated how much of a privilege this stat distribution is. It allows the offensive Arceus formes to be incredibly bulky still, and it makes defensive sets an absolute nightmare to KO. Coupled with its good longevity with Recover, this Pokemon becomes a living nightmare to deal with. Nothing short of :Palafin-Hero: Choice Banded Wave Crash or :Palkia-Origin: Hydro Pump can 2HKO neutrally. It means that a lot of games have Arceus-on-Arceus action, as it's the safest way to handle the opposing Arceus. This leads into my final point against Arceus in this tier, which is...

The lack of safe answers

Combining both of the previous points leads to a natural answer. How do you safely answer the opposing Arceus, especially when you factor in terastallization? Effectively nothing can safely wall arceus forms. Sure :Blissey: beats special Arceus formes until it pulls out Taunt. :Dondozo: can wall physical variants, but what if it runs Grass Knot? The boundless versatility often means that the Arceus forme can get the element of surprise on you, and that's all this Pokemon needs to sweep. All of these combined make me feel like most of the Arceus formes are too strong with their lack of exploitable weaknesses and boundless versatility. Specifically, I feel like Arceus-Fire, Arceus-Dark, Arceus-Poison, and Arceus-Electric are all inherently too powerful for this tier. Although it is expected for tiers above OU to be overcentralized, I feel the complete lack of options to safely answer all of these Pokemon warrants some looking into at the minimum, but I would like community opinion on this matter. However, there are a few very strong reasons for Arceus to be allowed in this tier. Let's look at these.

The lack of an Ability and Item Slot

This, in my opinion, is the main balancing factor for Arceus in this tier. It has virtually no ability, which isn’t super significant but means it misses out on certain unique factors that other Pokemon are afforded by their abilities. However, the big factor for me is the lack of an open item slot. This means no power-boosting items, like a :choice-band:; no speed-boosting items, like a :choice-scarf:; and most importantly, no :Heavy-Duty Boots: or :Leftovers:. This means that Arceus is susceptible to Hazard Chip damage and being forced to Recover and give the opponent a free turn. Alongside this, I feel that this removes some of the unpredictability that Arceus could have had had it been afforded an item slot. The lack of an item slot gives you a chink in the armour, so to speak, something to aim for when trying to counter most Arceus forms, and this leads into my final point.

Passive Damage

I feel that the most realistic and safest way to deal with the Arceus formes is to force as much passive damage on them as you can, akin to Gen 5 Ubers. Stealth Rock, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Leech Seed, Burn, Poison, Toxic, and even Sandstorm all help to deal with an Arceus. I feel this is so mandatory and important to dealing with Arceus that Pokemon like :Slowking-Galar: and :Toxapex: will stay in on Arceus formes they’re weak to, just to fish for status on them, and the Arceus user will potentially not switch in directly just to avoid this. Passive damage greatly influences the way an Arceus must play.


In conclusion, I feel that Arceus is too centralising in this metagame to be healthy, at least with certain forms for sure. I feel Arceus-Fire and Arceus-Electric to be particularly egregious, as they are very offensively threatening, and their checks usually are other Arceus and very specific pokemon, but Arceus-Fire especially feels too strong and far too volatile.
I’m a little confused by this post. It says that Arceus is too strong for the tier, but later says that only 4 or so Arceus variants currently are too strong for the tier. Is it your contention that Arceus should be tiered as a species, and we should not tier each form individually? Or is it your contention that all forms are broken/too unhealthy for the tier (including ones like Arceus-Bug). Or, is it your contention that just the few you mentioned are too much for the tier and should be banned.

I’m not trying to be abrasive or anything, I’m genuinely curious as to what specifically we are referring to here before offering an opinion on it.
I’m a little confused by this post. It says that Arceus is too strong for the tier, but later says that only 4 or so Arceus variants currently are too strong for the tier. Is it your contention that Arceus should be tiered as a species, and we should not tier each form individually? Or is it your contention that all forms are broken/too unhealthy for the tier (including ones like Arceus-Bug). Or, is it your contention that just the few you mentioned are too much for the tier and should be banned.

I’m not trying to be abrasive or anything, I’m genuinely curious as to what specifically we are referring to here before offering an opinion on it.
Personally, I think that those specific Arceus forms are too strong, but then theres the topic of once they go, the other just replace them and recreate the problem. I'd rather we keep some element of the weaker Arceus forms in the tier, but that'd need further testing. For the moment though, definitely each form individually seems healthier for the tier.
I been saying it for a long that arceus fire should of gotten the hammer. Arc fires offensive capabilities is not replicable compared to the other arceus just due to how strong those flare blitz are. It doesn't die and has espeed to basically make it even harder to revenge kill. I would be completely fine to test arceus fire alone and maybe slowly get to the other ones to.

As for arceus in general, I feel like most of the forms are just the glue that holds this tier together so I would def still keep a few of the worser ones
I agree with everything you said. Additionally, many games involve Arceus vs Arceus speed-tying shenanigans, which can be quite frustrating. While I doubt it will happen, I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of banning all forms of Arceus. Despite some forms having their place in the current metagame, I personally find Arceus to be an unpleasant element overall. Ubers UU was introduced to allow for the use of less popular Pokémon from the Ubers tier, which are not allowed in OU. I doubt that those mons people wanted to play with were Arceus-Fire or Arceus-Dark. The tier would be more versatile and other mons could shine without Arceus in the tier. And I also agree with:
Personally, I think that those specific Arceus forms are too strong, but then theres the topic of once they go, the other just replace them and recreate the problem.
So I think that all of the allowable Arceus forms are fine in the tier at the moment and don't break it, but I do sympathize with the notion that it's awfully uninteresting to have Arceus as a near-mandatory mon on every team. It's not necessarily "centralizing" since each form is different and, in that respect, it's not the "same" mon on every team. It's the type of situation where I feel the community probably needs to decide how they want to play this tier and if they want it to be Arceus-heavy. However, I strongly disagree with any kind of notion that the "other" Arceus forms are just going to replace the good ones - the current good ones don't even all replace each other since they generally do different things (you can't really replace Arceus-Dark with Arceus-Fire they have much different roles in how they play out). I doubt this would really happen and, even in the off-chance that it somehow does, it's still nothing but speculation at the moment which we can't really base decisions on. So it'd be incredibly irresponsible/inappropriate in my opinion to consider banning any Arceus forms that haven't even really shown up, never mind shown any issues.

I would suggest doing something along these lines if the community opinion is strong enough on this issue:

Hold a suspect test for the 4 main Arceus forms used in Ubers UU (Dark, Electric, Poison, Fire), simultaneously. Then at the conclusion of the suspect test, have each person to gain reqs vote on each form. For example:

Arceus-Dark: ban/do not ban
Arceus-Electric: ban/do not ban
Arceus-Poison: ban/do not ban
Arceus-Fire: ban/do not ban

I think this would allow the community to sort of decide if they want to play with the big Arceus forms or if they don't, and that's probably the only way to do it while still respecting general tiering guidelines. This should put the issue to rest on what people want to do - and if they all end up getting banned then the other ones could be examined in the future if necessary. If none or just one get banned then it's pretty clear we are ok with playing Arceus wars in Ubers UU. I personally don't know how I would vote if it came down to this - I don't think any of them break the tier but I do think a tier without those 4 would be a bit more interesting.
I definitely agree with Overshoc's sentiment. Even with the presence of checks such as hazards and Dondozo, Arceus-Fire feels incredibly restricting and overpowered. It basically shreds anything that isn't at minimum a balance team, and often forces Bulky Offense to run either Tera Water Great Tusk or Giratina, the latter of which is quite passive for the archetype. I definitely think a suspect test at minimum is warranted for Arceus-Fire.
That said, I wouldn't hit the nuke button on the other Arceus forms just yet. Many of them, most notably Dark and Grass, serve as glue for the tier. I can definitely understand the concern, and I think the best course of action is to suspect Arceus-Fire and see how it goes.
Now this is just my thoughts but without arceus the whole tier goes into chaos. In my opinion it is the most splashable mon in the entire meta. It is the glue that holds teams together. without arc I feel as though hyper offence becomes way better because now not only will almost every team have no 120 120 120 defense spread but the priority options in the tier for revenge killing becomes way weaker. These are just my thoughts, take them as you will.
I think the main reason Arceus as a whole should stay in the tier is that the qualities it brings are the only thing holding the tier apart, like imagine attempting to handle Necrozma-Dawn-Wings when it was allowed, Mewtwo and Deoxys without Arceus-Dark. It's a monumental task when the other two best Dark-types are Urshifu and Kingambit which are more offensively oriented and have clear weaknesses. Talking about Arceus being banned like this has been brought up before and the problem in my opinion is considering all the Arceus forms like the same Pokemon despite them all running different moves and having different typings. Sure, "The Set" exists which is able to be used basically universally yet all the types still have different answers.

Furthermore, you mention nothing short of powerful attacks from Palafin and Palkia-Origin handle it. When discussing about which Pokemon win in a 1v1 against a Pokemon with recovery and setup that is being hit neutrally, it makes them seem incredibly powerful on paper. Using Arceus-Fire, the most in contention to be banned as an example you realise that there are more answers since it is clearly its own individual Pokemon compared to Arceus as a whole. Arceus-Dark is usually running a defensive or support set while Arceus-Fire is running Swords Dance Extreme Speed.

In my opinion, the most important part which balances God itself is how it folds like a lawn chair when stepping on top of sharp objects. Since Necrozma-Dawn-Wings is banned, it is easier to remove hazards but that ban has also made other spinblockers more relevant and Gholdengo; who is severely underrated is a great way to deal with this Pokemon. I'd argue it can end up outclassed when other Pokemon can do the same job by wearing Heavy Duty Boots.
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Leo Justice

Ubers UU leader
is a Forum Moderator
I disagree that all forms are banworthy, and I personally think that a lot of the forms are fine and I like their defensive capabilities

Arceus-Dark in general is a mon that helps a lot against defensive teams and is somewhat easy to slot, but is easy to out offense with things like :Zacian: or :Zamazenta-Crowned: who can often stop it in its tracks because it struggles to break through them even with Tera. I also cannot fathom to imagine the idea of NDW on the tier without Arc Dark

Arc electric allows for a strong stab combination while not being too overbearing. I've been finding that its CM + bolt beam is rather lacking to the point where I am thinking of using it more as an offensive utility mon with moves like SR. I have never really used it myself but from the footage i've seen + the times i've fought against it this thing is rather mid.

Arc Poison has gone down a lot. I barely see it outside of the times I've used it myself. Mainly due to NDW almost completely invalidating it + the fact that you had to use arc fire or dark for it to not sweep you. :Arceus-Poison: has been a lot more manageable, but that is mainly because people for some reason spam it like an Ekiller with stab + EQ (walled by Skarmory, D tier at best) instead of actually tapping into its potential. I used to dislike this mon because it felt like whenever you saw it you could never tell what it was going to do. However, on the previous stats, about half of all arc poisons run SD Espeed, meaning it is a lot more telegraphed than before. I think this has the potential to be banworthy, but it needs severe experimentation. using Ekiller is not it folks

Arc Grass feels like a pivotal mon to have. It is so good to have a good answer to :Palkia-Origin: (Ignore the possibility of crits pls), and it fits in really well in teams like Sun, Patching up a lot of defensive weaknesses. I personally think this needs to still be on the tier

Most other are rather mediocre due to a combination of lack of experimentation + a lack of actual data. At most its body press + stored power arceus fighting or psychic (remember what that one person said? We need to ban it asap)

Arc Ice and Bug are straight up unviable. Like I doubt they'd be even that good even if they were the only arc forms around

And finally, I actually agree on Arc Fire. I think :Arceus-Fire: specifically was extremely overbearing on the last month because :Necrozma-dawn-wings: made :Giratina: so much worse, since its biggest check gone from most teams due to it being a defensive liability. It is still strong even now, and it is incredibly cheap to win games with it. Like I swear sometimes I just sac a mon, click SD and win on the spot. It is incredibly stupid. I'm open to suspecting it if enough community support is shown, in posts like this and on future surveys.

Oh and also, I dont think other Arceus' can replace forms like Arceus-Fire. I've seen things like Ekiller Arc Dark and let me tell you: It is not good. Most forms have different things they can do, because of its typing + its item. Like Arceus-Poison is a much worse Ekiller than Arc Fire, since pokemon like :Great-Tusk: answer it perfectly with or without Tera. It would force it to run liquidation which is very bad because then mons like :Solgaleo: and :Magearna: begin to be amazing answers to it. It is spread very thin.


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Glad this post was made. I have felt Arceus is amazing (duh) in the tier but only in its flawed forms. My fellow council members know I've stated numerous times that the tier is at its best the less Arceus forms there are to account for due to its extreme versatility. At this point, it's fine for the tier but we likely need to remove 1/2 formes to contain the monster it is.

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